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Those fun loving Americans!

by The_Walrus @ 07 Dec. 2007 - 22:53:34

The BBC reports that the Americans have destroyed the video evidence of their tortures.

In the report, there is an excerpt from an ABC description of "water boarding".

Prisoner bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round his head. Water is poured onto his face and is said to produce a fear of drowning.

This is somewhat economical with the truth. The Wikipedia description of the reality of this torture is sickening to read. It is also true. Water enters the lungs, which causes agonising pain. People tortured in this way are reported to have struggled hard enough to have broken their own bones, and torn muscles away from their bones. CIA officers who subject themselves to the technique last an average of 14 seconds before caving in. Apparently the main problem with the technique is that subjects will confess to anything at all.

In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. Times have changed...


 
 

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wendlanewendlane pro
2007-12-08 @ 00:27

Hmmm...it's all very disturbing, really horrible.

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 11:41

Make no mistake, these people intend to own the whole world. They do not care what they do to get it.

wendlanewendlane pro
2007-12-09 @ 13:36

Yes I believe you are right, but every dog has it's day and so will they eventually.

technomisttechnomist [Member]
2007-12-08 @ 00:49

They haven't destroyed all the evidence. it will be on the bodies and in the psychological sequelae in the minds of their victims and in first hand testimony of the witnesses and perpetrators; the latter who will never be able to escape from the horrors of what they have done.

The Americans don't have to pretend they need to need to go to Japanese testimony to confront at the evils of watreboarding, which is clearly illegal under their own domestic laws:

http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2007/11/if_it_was_tortu.html

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 11:43

They have the stupid idea that they can defeat evil by doing and being evil. The net result is that they become the greatest evil.

cishanjiacishanjia [Member]
2007-12-08 @ 18:25

This is almost certainly in violation of Article 1 of the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT), and Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I expect, though can't verify, that the US is a signatory to both these items. In which case, I would also expect (though can't verify) that it exists as US law.

The news article seems to be suggesting that:
The prisoners were tortured while in CIA custody; and
The prisoners were tortured while in one or more Eastern European countries; before
Being rendered to the United States' Guantanemo Bay facility.

I'd be interested to know:
Whether these E. European countries were signatories; and
What the authors of the UNCAT think of this CIA interpretation of:
Article 2. (That torture cannot be inflicted by a nation "in any territory under its jurisdiction.").
Article 3 ("No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture." But of course Guantanemo Bay doesn't count, because they allegedly torture them elsewhere.

But of course all of this looks to be legally moot, as technomist pointed out above.

I'm tempted to write, "With allies like this, who needs enemies?"

I would think it obvious to anyone with even have a moral brain that torture is wrong. And anyone with half an intellectual brain that it's also ineffective. Not to mention when the truth outs it backfires.

C.

technomisttechnomist [Member]
2007-12-08 @ 22:29

UNCAT is binding on all the Eastern European countries and in any event, they are bound by the provisions of Article 3 and Article 33 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which contain prohibitions against torture and have non-refoulement provisions, similar provisions to those in UNCAT.

technomisttechnomist [Member]
2007-12-08 @ 22:53

Actually, I don't know what possessed me to say Art 33 of ECHR! There isn't one (I was thinking of the 1951 Convention). Check facts, Technomist, check facts.

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 11:46

The people actually running America are not interested in laws. They care only about power, and they intend to control the whole world, and will do whatever it takes.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

bunstanbunstan [Member]
2007-12-08 @ 19:48

yeah, what he said.

seriously though that's the most important point of all - it just acts as a recruitment tools for the people you are fighting against. So it gets messier and messier.

We used to say this about Northern Ireland twenty years ago, the american war machine calls it "the battle for hearts and minds".

this is the battle they are so blatantly loosing, and all the stinger missiles and nukes and robot spy-planes in the world, won't make a bit of difference.

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 11:49

Worse still, of course, for criticising them, we become "the enemy" as well.

They are too big to beat by force, and unless the few remaining peaceful Americans can somehow stop this, the best we can hope for is the supervolcano under the Yellowstone National Park coming to our rescue.

bunstanbunstan [Member]
2007-12-09 @ 12:27

yes yes yes, right with you on the supervolcano.

And on a purely moral level the nation-state would deserve it. I don't actually wish this would happen tho, I don't think you do either Doc, but let's not spoil a good rant.

" for criticising them, we become "the enemy" as well. "

this is the sickener, they can't actually argue with you from any rationale, they can only try to hoodwink you with the old - "not supporting our troops" pish. It's just misdirection.

I think america should be broken up but what do you do with a six foot infant bullying all the other kids in the sandpit?

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 12:40

No, I suppose I don't really want the supervolcano solution. I do actually have friends who are Americans. They all (I think) live on the west coast, and are uniformly horrified by what their government does in their name.

I recently flogged a book on eBay, in which the west coast states of America secede from the union, and set up an ecologically sound culture. Naturally, the rest of the US treats it as the great satan... it was called Ecotopia, and is an even better read now that when it was written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia

Oops, a bit off topic there.

bunstanbunstan [Member]
2007-12-09 @ 12:47

Not at all bud, I'll look it up, sounds devious!!!

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2007-12-09 @ 07:05

Even just wars, whatever that might be, make us all evil.

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-09 @ 11:53

I'm off to play some music... thinking about what these torturers do makes me feel sick. You can not defeat evil by becoming evil yourself...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2007-12-09 @ 12:02

I think that fight on terrorism would have been much more effective, if they sponsored an American TV, with Mickey Mouse and Snow-white to every child around the world. I believe that with these creations Walt Disney brought more happiness to the heart of people, than all religions put together. I wish we'd used more of it to better our world.

AYATOLLAHAYATOLLAH [Member]
2007-12-11 @ 16:06

Iranian are having a field day with this news shouting "Great Satan" in the street. They say this is true human rights and liberty in US. "Death to America" is regularly chanted as a mantra against US.

The_WalrusThe_Walrus [Member]
http://www.doctor-dark.co.uk
2007-12-11 @ 16:26

That's amazing! One lot of torturers, who specialise in stoning people to death, cutting body parts off, flogging the flesh off the back, and many other unpleasant acts, criticising another lot of torturers. The pot calling the kettle black, as we say.

They are both evil, and two wrongs will never make a right.

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